麦肯锡-职业女性需要什么才能崛起？What will it take for working women to rise 2024

November2024

Mcsey

&company

Diversity&Inclusion

Whatwillittakefor

workingwomentorise?

Tenyearsofresearchrevealswhat’sbetter,what’sworse,andwhatallofuscandonowtohelpmorewomenadvance—morequickly—atwork.

Changecanbechallenging—andslow.Casein

point:adecadeofresearchon

Womeninthe

Workplace

,conductedbyMcKinseyinpartnershipwithLeanIn.Org,disclosesseveralareaswhere

womenstilllagbehindtheircounterparts.Inthis

episodeof

TheMcKinseyPodcast

,McKinseyseniorpartners

AlexisKrivkovich

and

LareinaYee

speakwithglobaleditorialdirectorLuciaRahillyabout

wherewomen’sexperienceshaveimproved,stalled,andevenworsenedoverthepasttenyears,aswellashowtofinallyhastenthepaceofchange.

TheMcKinseyPodcastiscohostedbyRobertaFusaroandLuciaRahilly.

Thefollowingtranscripthasbeeneditedforclarityandlength.

Onthehorizon

LuciaRahilly:Listeners,welcome.AndRoberta,hello!

RobertaFusaro:Hello,Lucia!

LuciaRahilly:Didyouhearthebignews?We’recelebratingthe

60thbirthdayofourflagship

publication

,theMcKinseyQuarterly.Itislive.Andyoucanreaditforfree.JustgotoMcKandsubscribe.

RobertaFusaro:Thecurrenteditionfocusesonthewildridethat’sbeenthestateoftechnologyand

whatitmeanstosociety,business,andleadership.

Lucia,didyouknowthatonly

60yearsago,people

hadjustbeenintroducedtotouch-tonetelephones

?

LuciaRahilly:That’sincredible.Andnowwewearcomputersonourwrists.

RobertaFusaro:Yes,and60yearsfromnow,there’sanindustrythatmightlookandfeelverydifferentfromhowit’sexperiencedtoday,

especiallywiththeadventofgenerativeAI:banking.Infact,our

GlobalBankingAnnualReview

isnow

liveonourwebsite.

LuciaRahilly:Bigpicture,there’sskepticismaboutbanks’abilitytocreatelong-termvalue.Ourarticlerevealswhatsuccessfulbanksaredoingtoget

valuecreationright.

RobertaFusaro:Andnow,let’shearaboutthe

recentlypublished

WomenintheWorkplacereport

withseniorpartnersAlexisKrivkovichandLareinaYee.

Battlingchangefatigue

LuciaRahilly:Inanotheranniversary,thisyear

marksyeartenofourWomenintheWorkplace

research,conductedinpartnershipwithLeanIn.

Beforewehomeinonsomeofthisyear’sheadlineinsights,let’stalkaboutwhatthecatalystwasforinitiatingthisresearch.

AlexisKrivkovich:Myoriginstoryisverypersonal.

NotlongafterIhadbecomeanelectedpartneratMcKinsey,Iattendedmyfirstglobalpartner

meeting.I’dneverspenttimewithourfullglobalpartnership.

IwalkedintotheroomandwasstunnedbecauseI’dexpectedtoseesomanywomen.Idon’tknowwhy,inhindsight.ButwhatIsawwasaroomthat,asI

nowknow,lookedalotlikewhatwesawinmostC-suitesacrosscorporateAmericatenyearsago:lessthanoneinsixwomen.

Whatwillittakeforworkingwomentorise?2

Icouldn’tbelievethatin2015,thiswasour

situation.Itwasawake-upcallbecauseIhadtwo

youngdaughters,andIwasabouttofindoutIwaspregnantwithmythird.AndIthought,“Gosh,Idon’twantthemtofast-forward25yearsandwalkinto

thesameroom.”

LuciaRahilly:Lareina,howaboutyou?

LareinaYee:IwasarecentlyelectedpartnerandfoundmyselfnoticingthatIdoubledthenumberofwomeneverytimeIwalkedintoaclientmeeting.

Therewasonewomanfromtheclient,andthentherewasme.Thatwasoneobservation.

Second,Ihadanamazingsponsor,andhesatdownwithmeandsaid,“Lareina,considerhowyoucan

domore,havemoreimpactbeyondwhatyou’re

doingtoday.Ifyouweretodreamaboutcreating

somethingatMcKinsey,whatwouldthatbe?”I

thoughtaboutthatandcamebackandsaid,“I’dliketoseehowwecoulduseMcKinseyanalyticsto

solvethelackofwomenatthetop.”

LuciaRahilly:That’sagreatstory.Andnowhereweare.Forthisyear’sreport,McKinseyinterviewed

15,000employees.Let’shearwhatoneofthemhadtosay,asreadbyoneofourcolleagues.For

context,thisisaBlackwomanmanager.Shesays:

Manager:Thebiggestbarrieriswill.Idon’tknowifwehavethewilltomakeoverarchingchangesto

thewaythatweviewtheworkplace,becausethestatusquoisworkingforabunchofpeople.

LuciaRahilly:Unfortunately,notmanyofthosepeoplearewomenorpeoplewithtraditionally

marginalizedidentities.AlexisandLareina,this

year’sreportcallsforleaderstorecommitto

changeinordertoscaleandacceleratewomen’sgains.Whatdowemeanbyrecommittingto

change,inpracticalterms?

AlexisKrivkovich:Whatweseethisyear,forthe

firsttimeinthedecadewe’vebeenfollowingthis

data,isthatcompaniesarestartingtostepback

fromtheircommitment.Andweseethatinacoupleofways.First,thenumberofcompaniesthatput

diversityasatoppriorityontheiragendahasfallenforthefirsttime,andthat’sincrediblyconcerningbecausewe’remid-inningsinthisjourney.We

haven’tachievedparity,andtohavecompaniespullingbackalreadyisarealwarningsignal.Butbeyondthat,weseeotherplaceswherethe

prioritizationofprograms,thesupportthat’sbeingofferedonthemargin,isdriftingbackward,not

forward.

LuciaRahilly:Whatdoyouthinkiscausingcompaniestodeprioritizetheseinitiatives?

AlexisKrivkovich:Onthesurface,Ithinkmost

companieswouldtellyouthere’salotofcomplexityinthemarkettoday—supplychainshocks,inflation,unpredictablemarketdemandenvironment,talentshifts—andtheyneedtofocustheirnear-term

attentionelsewhere.

Underneathit,myworryisthatwe’refacingfatiguebeforewe’vemadeenoughprogressandthatthisissueofcreatingequalaccessforallgreattalentofeverytype—womenandmenofeveryrace,every

socioeconomicbackground—hasbeenreframedasazero-sumgame.Doneright,it’snotazero-sum

game.Companiesthatwinondiversityarethosethatalsowinonhelpingalltalentaccessthe

coaching,development,managersupport,

programs,andsponsorshiptheyneedtothriveandgrow.

Whatwillittakeforworkingwomentorise?3

What’sbetterforwomenatwork

LuciaRahilly:Womenareoftendescribedaslessapttoputthemselvesforwardforpromotion,whichcanleadfolkstosaythey’relessambitiousorlessamenabletohardwork,forexample,thanmen.

Whatdoestheresearchtellusaboutwomen’sinterestandaspirationtoadvanceatwork?

LareinaYee:Idon’tthinkweshouldconfusebeingpolitewithbeingambitious.Womenmaypausetoletsomeoneelseexpresstheirviews.Theymay

pauseinpolitenesstoletsomeoneelseraisetheirhand.Thatdoesn’tmeantheirhandwasn’traised.Womenare

incrediblyambitious

tobeleadersintheirorganizations,togettothenextlevel.

Ambitionisnottheissue.Theissueisthesystemandallthehurdlestheyfacetofulfillthatpotential.

LuciaRahilly:Alexis,youreferredtobeingmid-inningsinthegameofgettingtoparity.Let’stalkaboutthegainswomenhavemadeoverthepasttenyearsandwhatourresearchhasrevealed.

AlexisKrivkovich:Thebiggestgainswe’veseen

havebeenattheverytop.ThebrightspotoverthelastdecadehasclearlybeenintheC-suite,from17percentfix

women’srepresentationto29percent.

That’sahugegainandabsolutelysomethingtocelebrate.

Butthere’salotoffragilityinthatprogress.First,

thewaycompaniesgotthereisnotaplaybooktheycanapplylookingforward.Onaverage,companiesaddedaseatatthetableintheC-suite.Andthey

triedhard,whentheydidn’thavediversity,tofillthatseatwithawoman.Thoseroleswerelargelywhatwecallstaffroles:CHROs,financeleaders,generalcounsel.Buttheydon’ttendtoladdertotheCEO,andtheyoftendon’thaveasmuch

mobilityintoowninganddrivingbusinessoutcomesdirectly.Socompaniescan’trepeatthatplay.

Second,tofillthatseatwithmorediversetalent,

theylookedoutsidetheirorganization,notinside.Andwhenyoulookbackdownthepipeline,whereyoushouldexpecttoseemoreandmoretalentedwomenrisingup,waitingforthosenextbigjobsatthetop,youdon’t.Youseethisflatteningoutandamuchslowerprogresscurve,whichsuggeststhatsomething’sbrokeninsidealotofcompanies,withtheirabilitytogrowthattalentandhelpmovethattalentforward.

LuciaRahilly:Let’stalkaboutwhatspecific

practicescompanieshaveimplementedtoenablewomen’sadvancement.Evenifcompaniesaren’t

promotinginternally,thewomenthey’rebringinginmustbeadvancingelsewhere—sothat

advancementishappening.What’shelpingthesewomenmakeituptheladder?

LareinaYee:AlotofthingsincorporateAmerica

areconsiderablybetteradecadelater.Forexample,itisincrediblycommonplaceforcompaniestoofferparentalleave,tohaveactuallyincreasedthe

numberofweeksrelatedtothatpaidleave.Manycompanieshavebereavement.Theyhaveelderlycare.

Theyhavethoughtaboutanarrayofbenefitsthatareincrediblymeaningful.Anditisnotan

exception;it’smorethenorm.Weseethatinthedata.Infact,weaskedfewerquestionsabout

benefitsandpoliciesbecausemanyareinplaceinasustained,secureway.

Whenwethinkaboutrecruiting,we’veseenso

muchprogressbothincompaniesdiversifyingwhentheyfindtalentbutalsoinprovidingsomeofthose

biasbusters

andmechanismsinhowtheyrecruit,interview,andlookattalenttomakesurethat

womenaregivenafairshake.Andmanycompanies

arefindingthattheirentrypointisactually

considerablyhigherthanwhentheystartedtenyearsago.Thesearerealgains.

Whatwillittakeforworkingwomentorise?4

‘Something’sbrokeninsidealotof

companies,withtheirabilitytogrowthattalentandhelpmovethattalentforward.’

—AlexisKrivkovich

Theothercategorywherewe’vemaderealgainsisflexibility.BeforeCOVID,flexibilitywasthenumberonethingwomenfelttheyneededthattheyweren’tgettingintheworkplace:flexingyourhours,your

location,howyougetthingsdone,andyour

managernothavingtoseeyoudoingthework.Thathasreallyevolved.ButLucia,I’msureyouand

Alexisknowthatwhilethesearemeaningfulpiecesthatmateriallyaffecttheday-to-dayexperienceofwomen,weareafarcryfromequalexperience.

What’sslowtochange

LuciaRahilly:That’sagreatseguetoournextclip,whichisfromaSoutheastAsianwomanmanager.Here’swhatshesays:

Manager:Thebestthingcompaniescandofor

mothersistohaveaveryclearmaternityleave

benefitandsupportflexibility.It’sjustnotfairfor

womentofeelliketheyneedtomakeatrade-off

betweentakingcareoftheirkidsandgoingtowork.

LuciaRahilly:Womentendtobetheprimary

caretakersofchildrenandsometimesaging

parents.Somecompaniesarenowtalkingaboutreturningtotheoffice.Howdoweanticipatethisaffectingworkingmothers?

LareinaYee:Idon’tthinkweneedtobeafraidofreturningtotheoffice.First,returningtotheofficehasalotofbenefits,andsomeofwhatwe’ve

learnedisthatitcansupportgreater

apprenticeshipandimproveyournetworksandaccesstosponsors—someoftheinformal

interactionsthathelpyoubuildtheequitytosupportyouradvancementovertime.

Thatsaid,beingintheofficefivedaysaweekmaynotfiteverybody.Thisisatoughtopic,butthefirstpointistherearesomebenefitstobeinginthe

office.ThesecondisthatIthinkit’slessabouthowoftenyou’reintheofficeandmoreabouttheabilitytoarchitectyourcareerwithflexibilitywhenyou

needitandbeinginaworkenvironmentthat

providesmanyofthethings—officepolicybeingoneofthem—thatallowforflexibilitywhenit

matters.

Whatwillittakeforworkingwomentorise?5

AlexisKrivkovich:I’darguethatthiswomanis

askingthequestionbecause,insociety,westill

haven’tsolvedfortheresponsibilitiesbeyondthe

workplace.Weseeclearlyinourdata—andthishasnotchangedinthepastdecade—thatwomenare

farmorelikely,irrespectiveoftheirearningpowerintheworkplace,todisproportionatelyholdthe

household,childcare,andeldercareresponsibilitiesathome.Thereasonyoufeelthatburningneedforextraflexisbecauseyou’reholdinganotherhalf-tofull-timejoboutsidetheworkplacethatyourpeers,inmanycases,arenot.Thathasnotchanged

generationallyorovertime.

What’sworse

LuciaRahilly:ThisnextclipcomesfromaLatinaseniormanagerwhosays:

Seniormanager:I’mayoungwomancurrentlyinamanagerrole.Ithinkthatspeaksvolumestothe

waythisindustryhasgrown.Butthingshavealsogottenworseforwomen.

LuciaRahilly:ReachingtheC-suiteisstillreally

hardforwomen.Thelatestresearchagainpointstothefragilityofthepipelinesforwomenattheentryandmanageriallevels.Giveussomeexamplesof

thekindsofbarrierswomenexperience.

AlexisKrivkovich:Atthestart,wedon’tseeourfairshareofdiversetalentcomingintothecorporate

pipeline.Womenhavegraduatedwithmorethan50percentkeeptogether

ofthecollegedegreesforeachofthepast30years,buttheyonlymakeup48percentoftheentrypipe.Andthisyearit’sactuallyalittlebitless.

Youmaysay,“Forty-eightpercent?Thatfeels

prettycloseto50percent.”Butthisisthelawof

verylargenumbers.Itmakesahugedifferenceto

access.Andthenwhenyoulookforwomenofcolor,

thatnumberbecomesmorechallengedveryquickly.

Let’stakethestoryofLatinas.Thisyear,Latinas

facethemostchallengingbrokenrung—theleastequityintheirattempttoadvanceintomanager

seatsthatwe’veeverseen.Forevery100men,65Latinawomengetthatfirststepuptomanager.

That’sthemomentwhencompaniesbetonyouforyourpipelineandyourpathwaytothetop,andfarfewerLatinawomenaregettingthatfirstshotup.

Fast-forwardtotheC-suite.Latinasmakeup9.6Victor,pleaseletmeknowifweshouldn'tbemarkingtheseonFFs.Thesearetheonlychanges.Keeptogether?

percentofthepopulationandjust1.4percentoftheC-suite.Weshouldseeoneoutoftencompanies

havingaLatinasittingattheirtable,butit’smorelikeoneinahundred.

LuciaRahilly:Andwhataccountsforthatacuteimbalance?

AlexisKrivkovich:Let’sstartwiththestructural

barriers.Veryoftenthecriteriaweusetoevaluatepotentialisincrediblybiased.Ifyouareanexcellentleaderbutyoudon’tlookliketheprototypeofthe

leaderswhohavecomebeforeyou—andby

definition,mostwomenofcolordisproportionately

don’tlookliketheleaderswhocamebefore

them—youoftengetoverlookedorundercountedrelativetoyourpotential.

Second,theday-to-dayexperienceforwomen,

particularlywomenofcolor,issimplydifferent.Thedegreetowhichyou’rechallengedonyour

competency,thenumberoftimessomeonetapsyouontheshouldertoofferyouastretch

assignment,theindividualcoachingyouget—itdoesnothappenasfrequentlyandwithasmuchsupportasitdoesformen.

Whatwillittakeforworkingwomentorise?6

LareinaYee:It’sdeathbyathousandcuts.Andthatisthe“feltexperience”—theexasperationandthe

tonethatyouhearwhenwedotheseinterviews.

Whatcanbedone

LuciaRahilly:Let’sturntowhat,collectively,we

candotospeedupthepaceofchangesothatthethreeofusaren’therein2034havingthissame

conversation.Wetalkedalittlebitabout

advancementtomanager.Let’stalkabouthiring.Anythoughtsaboutwhat’sworkingandnotvis-à-visdebiasingthehiringprocess?

AlexisKrivkovich:Oneareaofprogressisthat

companieshavemademoreeffortstoformalize

theirhiringandadvancementprocesses.They’re

lookingforbias.They’retryingtotrackanddisruptit.I’mhopefulthattechnologycanhelpushere

becausetechnologycouldidentifywherewe’re

usingstale,human-bias-basedpatternrecognitiontotelluswhatwethinkgoodlookslike,orready-

nowsuccessionlookslike.Wheninfact,ifyouwereabletolookacrossallthepatternsofperformanceinyourcompany,youmightseeotherplaces,otheropportunities,andotherindividuals.

Thesecondthingtechnologycandoiseventheplayingfield.Canwecreateaccessforpeople,acceleratecapabilitybuilding,andchange

onboardingtoallowcompaniestobemorecreativeaboutwheretheygofortalentandhowtheyseekoutdiversetalent?

LareinaYee:

GenerativeAI

givesusnew

capabilitiesthatwouldallowthethingsthatAlexisjustmentionedtobedoneatascale,atspeed,and

actuallyatacostthat’sveryreasonablefor

companies.Andwomencanusetechnologyasatooltoadvancetheirownexpertiseandabilitytosucceedatwork.

Anothersourceofoptimismisaccesstocapitalandentrepreneurship.Today,womenarearound2Keeptogether?

percentofventurecapitalfunding,andyoudon’tseeasmanywomenasfounders.Butthat’ssortofadeceptivestatisticbecauseit’swherewehave

beenhistorically.

Imagineifwechangedthat.Youcouldseeavery

differentfuture.Imaginethatthetermsofthegamechange,thataccesstocapitalchanges,andthatnothavingacomputersciencedegreeisn’tabarriertohavingajobwithtechnology.Andalso,thatwe

couldusenewtechnologieslikeAItodebiasina

moresystematicway,toimproverecruiting,andtoimprovetheabilityofwomentohavedifferenttypesofskillsandcapabilitiesthatallowthemtorise.

LuciaRahilly:Anypracticalsuggestionsforfolkslookingtopracticeallyship?

AlexisKrivkovich:Thevastmajorityofpeoplesaytheyintendtobeanallytoothersintheworkplace.

Andcompaniesaretryingtopromoteand

encouragethisaswell.Soit’snotamatterofgoodintention.It’sanissueofactivation,andmaybea

littleskillbuilding.It’sgreattosay,“Iwanttobeanally,andjustletmeknowifthere’sanythingyou

need.”Butitdoesn’twork.Whatalliesneedtosayis:“WhathaveIdonelately?WhathaveIdone

today?What’sonemoreincrementalactionIcouldtakewiththefrequencythatmighthelpchangethegameforawoman?”

Onewayeveryonecanbeanallyistohelpinthe

day-to-dayexperience,onbehalfofsomeoneelse:“Oh,wait.IthinkLareinawasn’tfinishedspeaking.”“That’sagoodpoint,butIthinkthat’sthepointshejustmade.”Youactuallyhelprebalancethepowerback,andyoudon’ttelltheindividualeverytime,

“Youneedtoadvocateforyourself.”Sure,youdo.Butyou’realreadydoingthateveryday.That’swhyyou’reexhausted.

Whatwillittakeforworkingwomentorise?7

‘WecouldusenewtechnologieslikeAItodebiasinamoresystematicway,toimproverecruiting,andtoimprovetheabilityofwomentohavedifferent

typesofskillsandcapabilitiesthatallowthemtorise.’

—LareinaYee

LareinaYee:Alexisgavesometerrificexamples.

Thereareothers,suchasdefendingtheworkofawomancolleagueifquestioned.There’salsoasking

questions:“Whatareyourprofessionalambitions?HowcanIhelpyou?”Womenwhoareincredibly

ambitiousknowexactlyhowyoucanhelp.There’s

saying,“Let’sgetyouonthisreallygreatproject

that’sgoingtohavealotofvisibilitytotheCEO.”

Youdon’tneedtowaitforsomebigpolicy,some

bigedictthatcomesfromthetop.Thisissomethingthateveryone,bothmenandwomen,cando

tomorrow.

AlexisKrivkovich:Letmegiveyouoneexample

everyleadercando.Getoutapieceofpaperand

writedownthelistofthepeopleyouthinkyou’re

sponsoringandmentoring.Andthengradeyourselfonhowdiversethatlistis.Manyleaderswillfind

thatthelistisnotbalanced.It’smorereflectiveoftheirownjourneyandthepeopletheythinktheycanmostnaturallycoachandsupport.

Thechallengeiswhentwo-thirdsofyourleadersaremenbuttwo-thirdsofyoursponsorsand

mentorsarewomen—andthat’swhatweseeinthedata.Youareaskingyourwomento

disproportionatelycarryawholepipelineoftalentalongataleveltheysimplydon’thaveenoughtimeorcapacitytodo.

LuciaRahilly:Anyfinalthoughtsor

recommendationsonwhatcanandshouldbedonetohelpwomenadvancemorequickly?

LareinaYee:Rightnow,thedatashowsthatwe

won’tget