福柯：自我技艺学

TechnologiesOFTHESelf

ASEMINARWITHMICHELFOUCAULT

EDITEDBYLUTHERH.MARTINHUCKGUTMANPATRICKH.HUTTON

THEUNIVERSITYOFMASSACHUSETTSPRESSAMHERST

Copyright©1988byTheUniversityofMassachusettsPressAllrightsreservedPrinted

intheUnitedStatesofAmerica

LC87-10756ISBN0-87023-593-1(paper)DesignedbyBarbaraWerdenSetinLinotron

JansonatRainsfordTypePrintedbyCushing-MalloyandboundbyJohnDekker&Sons

LibraryofCongressCataloging-in-PublicationData

Technologiesoftheself.

1.Self(Philosophy)2.Foucault,Michel-Contributionsinconceptoftheself.I.

Foucault,Michel.ILMartin,LutherH.,1937-III.Gutman,Huck,1943-IV.Hutton,

PatrickH.BD450.T39198812687-10756ISBN0-87023-593-1(pbk.:alk.paper)

BritishLibraryCataloguinginPublicationdataareavailable

CONTENTS

Introduction3

1Truth,Power,Self.AnInterviewwithMichelFoucault9

RUXMARTIN

2TechnologiesoftheSelf16

MICHELFOUCAULT

3TechnologiesoftheSelfandSelf-knowledgeintheSyrian

ThomasTradition50

LUTHERH.MARTIN

4TheatersofHumilityandSuspicion:DesertSaintsandNew

EnglandPuritans64

WILLIAME.PADEN

5Hamlet'snGlassofFashion”：Power,Self,andthe

Reformation80

KENNETHS.ROTHWELL

6Rousseau'sConfessions:ATechnologyoftheSelf99

HUCKGUTMAN

7Foucault,Freud,andtheTechnologiesoftheSelf121

PATRICKH.HUTTON

8ThePoliticalTechnologyofIndividuals145

MICHELFOUCAULT

Afterword163

Contributors165

-nuI105-

INTRODUCTION

Shortlybeforehisdeathin1984,MichelFoucaultspokeofanideaforanewbookon

"technologiesoftheself."Hedescribeditas"composedofdifferentpapersabouttheself

(forinstance,acommentaryonPlato'sAlcibiadesinwhichyoufindthefirstelaboration

ofthenotionofepimeleiaheautou,*careofoneself),abouttheroleofreadingand

writinginconstitutingtheself...andsoon."[ThebookFoucaultenvisionedwasbased

onafacultyseminaron"TechnologiesoftheSelf",originallypresentedattheUniversity

ofVermontinthefallof1982.Thisvolumeisapartialrecordofthatseminar.

BecauseFoucaultdiedbeforehecompletedtherevisionsofhisseminarpresentations,

thisvolumeincludesacarefultranscriptioninstead,togetherwithatranscriptofhis

publiclecturetotheuniversitycommunityon"ThePoliticalTechnologyofIndividuals."

ProfessorFoucault'sseminaron"TechnologiesoftheSelf*attheUniversityofVermont

standsasaprovisionalstatementofhisnewlineofinquiry.Weofferthisvolumeasa

prolegomenontothatunfinishedtask.

Inmanyways,Foucault'sprojectontheselfwasthelogicalconclusiontohishistorical

inquiryovertwenty-fiveyearsintoinsanity,deviancy,criminality,andsexuality.

ThroughouthisworksFoucaulthadconcernedhimselflargelywiththetechnologiesof

poweranddomination,wherebytheselfhasbeenobjectifiedthroughscientificinquiry

(TheOrderofThings,1966,trans.1970)andthroughwhathetermed"dividing

practices**(MadnessandCivilization,1961,trans.1965;TheBirthoftheClinic,1963,

trans.1973;andDisciplineandPunish,1975,trans.1977).^_By1981,hebecame

increasinglyinterestedinhow"ahumanbeingturnshim-orherselfintoasubject.H3

FoucaulthadaddressedtheissueoftheselfalreadyinvolumeIofTheHistoryof

Sexuality(1976,trans.1978),buttherehewasstillconcernedwiththeobjectificationof

theselfbythe"increasingvalorizationofthediscourseonsex.j_Heenvisionedhisnew

project,however,asHseparatefromthesexseries.n"Imustconfess/*hereflected,"thatI

ammuchmoreinterestedinproblemsabouttechniquesoftheselfandthingslikethat

ratherthansex....sexisboring."\Hisnewprojectwouldbe,rather,agenealogyofhow

theselfconstituteditself^subject.theVermontseminar,hebegananinvestigation

ofthosepracticeswherebyindividuals,bytheirownmeansorwiththehelpofothers,

actedontheirownbodies,souls,thoughts,conduct,andwayofbeinginorderto

transformthemselvesandattainacertainstateofperfectionorhappiness,ortobecomea

sageorimmortal,andsoon.7

InhisfinallecturetotheUniversityofVermontcommunity,Foucaultsummarizedhis

concernwiththeselfasanalternativetothetraditionalphilosophicalquestions:Whatis

theworld?Whatisman?Whatistruth?Whatisknowledge?Howcanweknow

something?Andsoon.InthetraditionofFichte,Hegel,Nietzsche,Weber,Husserl,

Heidegger,andtheFrankfurterschule,Foucaultwasinterestedinthequestionhe

understoodtohaveappearedattheendoftheeighteenthcenturywithKant:"Whatare

weinouractuality?""Whatarewetoday?"—thatis,"thefieldofthehistoricalreflection

onourselves."8

AccordingtoFoucault,hisprojectontheselfwassuggestedbyareadingofChristopher

Lasch'sTheCultureofNarcissism(1978).FoucaultunderstoodLasch*sdescriptionof

disillusionmentwiththemodernworldandasubsequentturningwithintobesimilarto

thesituationoftheRomanEmpire.Breakingwithhisstartingpointoftheclassicalage,

thepivotalperiodinhispreviousanalysesuntilTheHistoryofSexuality,Foucaultlocated

therootsofthemodernconceptoftheselfinfirst-andsecond-centuryGrecoRoman

philosophyandinfourth-andfifth-centuryChristian

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spirituality,twodifferentcontextsthatheunderstoodtobeinhistoricalcontinuity.

Foucault'ssixseminarpresentationstracethetechniquesofself-formationfromtheearly

GreekstotheChristianage.Theygaintheirfocusfromanexaminationofclassicaltexts,

whichFoucaultexpoundedfromtheiroriginallanguages.AswithmuchofFoucaulfs

work,theimportanceoftheseinquiriesliesnotonlyintheircontributiontothespecific

historyoftheperiodbuttowhathecalledthehistoryofthepresent—anexcavationof

andperspectiveonthebedrockofourmodernconceptions.

Foucault,hadinsistedthattheworkoftheseminarbecollaborative.Hisideasonthe

historicalconstitutionoftheself,thoughextraordinarilyclear,werenotfullydeveloped,

andhevaluedthediscussion-eventheopposition-thathisideasengendered.This

volumeincludes,therefore,selectedrevisedpresentationsbymembersoftheseminar.

Theyrepresenthistoricalinvestigationsonthecommonthemeoftheseminar.

IncontrasttothetechnologiesoftheselfexploredintheseminarbyFoucaultfromthe

Westernethicaltradition,LutherMartinlooksattheEasterntechniquesofself,which

enteredtheWesterntraditiononlywiththeinfluenceofthemonkJohnCassian.He

discoversaconcernwith"takingcareofoneself*thatisascentraltotheSyrianThomas

tradition,anearlyformofGnosticChristianity,astotheWest,butasaninterdiction

ratherthananobligation.

WilliamPadencomparesthetechniquesofself-scrutinyprescribedbyCassianandthose

sixoutbytheNewEnglandPuritans.Hefindsthattheyrepresenttworadicallydifferent

waysofdealingwithsubjectivity:Ontheonehandisthemonk'sconfidentrenunciation

ofselffollowedbyalifeofpurity,andontheotherhandisthePuritan'simplicit

acceptanceofselfhoodbutwithattendantsuspicionsaboutitsdeceptivecharacter.

KennethRothwell,too,isinterestedinreligioustechnologies.

・5・

LocatingHamletatthathistoricalmomentwhentheReformationemerged,heseesin

Hamlefsradicaltransformationthepersonificationofachangeinthetechnologiesofself

whichisconsonantwiththereplacementofearlierreligiouspracticesbythenew

practicesoftheReformation.

HuckGutmanexaminesRousseau'sConfessionsinordertodelineateanewlyemergent

Romanticsenseofself.Hefocusesonvarioustechniques-confession,division,flightto

theideal-whichareusedbyRousseauforfashioningthisnewselfandmakingitvisible.

Gutmanconcludesbyshowingthatthesetechnologiesarefinallyinsufficientfor

Rousseau*spurposesandthattheyleadhimnottotheconstitutionbuttothenegationof

theself.

Attheconclusionoftheseminar,itseemedimportanttocompareFoucault*smethodwith

thatofSigmundFreud,whosepsychoanalytictechniquehas-providedthebasisofmost

ofthiscentury*stheorizingaboutthenatureofthepsyche.PatrickHutton*sessayshows

howFoucaultslookattheancientlineageofmethodsforcareoftheselfprovidesa

counterpointtoFreud*squesttodiscovertheselfstruenature.Foucafiltsgenealogical

investigationofpasttechnologiesoftheselfnotonlyprovidesanoriginalperspectiveon

Freud'sworkbutalsorevealsasustaininglineofcontinuityinhisownscholarly

endeavorovertwenty-fiveyears.

Noendeavorthissortcancometofruitionwithouttheworkandsupportofmanypeople.

PresidentLattieF.CooroftheUniversityofVermontoriginatedandprovidedthefunds

fortheVermontSeminars,whichsponsoredtheseminar.Dr.RobertStanfield,Assistant

tothePresident,helpedusthroughcountlessdifficultiesinbringingtheideatoreality.

RuxMartin,afree-lancewriter,madethewrittentranscriptofFoucaultsseminar.She

alsocontributedherinterviewwith

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Foucaultinwhichhediscussessomeoftheinfluences-bothemotionaland

intellectual—uponhisthought.

SeveralscholarscametotheuniversitytocommentonFoucaulfswork:Frank

Lentricchia,ProfessorofLiteratureatDukeUniversity,authorofAftertheNewCriticism;

ChristopherLasch,ProfessorofHistoryattheUniversityofRochester,authorofThe

CultureNarcissism;andAllanMegill,ProfessorofHistoryattheUniversityofIowa,

authorofProphetsofExtremity:Nietzsche,Heidegger,Foucault,Derrida.

Mostimportantly,wewouldliketothanktheuniversityfacultywhohelpedplanand

participatedintheseminarandwhoguaranteeditssuccess.Participantscommitteda

gooddealoftheirtimetothisproject.Theyreadandmetregularlytodiscussallof

Foucault'sworkinpreparationforhiscoming.DuringthethreeweeksthatFoucaultwas

oncampus,theymettwiceweeklywiththeseminarinadditiontoattendingpublicevents,

whichincludedlecturesbyLasch,Megill,andFoucaultandashowingofthefilmI,

PierreRiviere..followedbyawide-rangingdiscussionledbyFoucault.Thisproject

wasanunusuallyintensiveandproductiveventurebycolleaguesworkingonacommon

theme.

MichaelFoucault'sboldnessandrigoroushonestyinthequestforknowledgearewell

known.Hispresence,however,wasnotwhatmightbeexpectedfromreadinghisworks.

Thosewhohadexpectedasternanddistantscholarweresurprisedbyhisgentlehumor.

Asought-afterlecturer,hewasnonethelessshyandhadtobeurgedtotakethestage

duringpublicpresentations.Heshunnedwhathecalled"intellectualcocktailparties,"but

hewasinterestedinnearlyeverything:inthelifeoftheuniversityaswellasacademic

subjects,inthepoliticsofBurlington,inthelocalnightlife.Hewasinterestedinthe

viewsofchildrenandatthehomesoffacultymemberswouldspendmuchoftheevening

talkingwiththemabouttheirconcerns.Hewashappiestinthecompanyofstudents,

whomhesoughtoutinclasses,inthelibrary,inthecafeteria.Thosewhomethimnoticed

mostofall

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hiseyes:penetrating,inquisitive,joyous.Werememberhimforhisvitality,his

generosity,hisbeliefinthevalidityofallexperience.

Thisvolumeisdedicatedtohismemory.

Notes

1PaulRabinowandHubertL.Dreyfus,"HowWeBehave:"InterviewwithMichel

Foucault.VanityFair.November1983;p.62.

2MichelFoucault,"TheSubjectandPower",AfterwordtoHubertL.Dreyfusand

PaulRabinow,MichelFoucault:BeyondStructuralismandHermeneutics(Chicago:

UniversityofChicagoPress,1982),p.208.

3Publiclecturetoaconferenceon"Knowledge,Power,History:Humanitiesasa

MeansandObjectofCriticism,sponsoredbytheCenterfortheHumanities,

UniversityofSouthernCalifornia,October1981;publishedasthefirstpartof

Foucault*s"Afterword,inDreyfusandRabinow",Foucault,pp208-9.

4MichelFoucault,TheHistoryofSexualityfvol.I:AnIntroduction,trans.Robert

Hurley?(NewYork:Pantheon,1978),p.23;seealsop.70.

5"HowWeBehave",p.62.

6SeeTheHistoiyofSexuality,vol.2:TheUseofPleasure,trans.RobertHurley(New

York:Pantheon1985),p.11,whereFoucaultreconceivedhisoriginalprojecton

sexualityaspartofa"generalhistoryofthe'techniquesoftheself.'”

7SeeFoucault,"TechnologiesoftheSelf",herein.Forsomeofthesethemes,butstill

inthecontextofhisworkonsexuality,seeTheHistoryofSexuality,vol.3:TheCare

oftheSelf,trans.RobertHurley(NewYork:Pantheon,1986),pp.37-68.

8ImmanuelKant,WasheisstAufklarung?nBerlinerMonatschrift,1784.SeeFoucault,

"Afterword,inDreyfusandRabinow",Foucault,p.214.

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OneTRUTH,POWER,SELF:ANINTERVIEWWITHMICHELFOUCAULT

OCTOBER25,1982

RUXMARTIN

Q:WhydidyoudecidetocometotheUniversityofVermont?

A:IcametotrytoexplainmorepreciselytosomepeoplewhatkindofworkIamdoing,

toknowwhatkindofworktheyaredoing,andtoestablishsomepermanentrelationships.

Iamnotawriter,aphilosopher,agreatfigureofintellectuallife:Iamateacher.Thereis

asocialphenomenonthattroublesmeagreatdeal:Sincethe1960s,someteachersare

becomingpublicmenwiththesameobligations.Idon'twanttobeaprophetandsay,

"Pleasesitdown,whatIhavetosayisveryimportant.nIhavecometodiscussour

commonwork.

Q:Youaremostfrequentlytermed"philosopher"butalso''historian,""structuralist/'and

"Marxist."ThetitleofyourchairattheCollegedeFranceis"ProfessoroftheHistoryof

SystemsofThought.nWhatdoesthismean?

A:Idon'tfeelthatitisnecessarytoknowexactlywhatIam.Themaininterestinlifeand

workistobecomesomeoneelsethatyouwerenotinthebeginning.Ifyouknewwhen

youbeganabookwhatyouwouldsayattheend,doyouthinkthatyouwouldhavethe

couragetowriteit?Whatistrueforwritingandforaloverelationshipistruealsoforlife.

Thegameisworthwhileinsofaraswedon*tknowwhatwillbetheend.

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Myfieldisthehistoryofthought.Manisathinkingbeing.Thewayhethinksisrelated

tosociety,politics,economics,andhistoryandisalsorelatedtoverygeneraland

universalcategoriesandformalstructures.Butthoughtissomethingotherthansocietal

relations.Thewaypeoplereallythinkisnotadequatelyanalyzedbytheuniversal

categoriesoflogic.Betweensocialhistoryandformalanalysesofthoughtthereisapath,

alane-maybeverynarrow-whichisthepathofthehistorianofthought.

Q:InTheHistoryofSexuality,yourefertothepersonwho"upsetsestablishedlawsand

somehowanticipatesthecomingfreedom."Doyouseeyourownworksomewhatinthis

light?

A:No.Foraratherlongperiod,peoplehaveaskedmetotellthemwhatwillhappenand

togivethemaprogramforthefuture.Weknowverywellthat,evenwiththebest

intentions,thoseprogramsbecomeatool,aninstrumentofoppression.Rousseau,alover

offreedom,wasusedintheFrenchRevolutiontobuildupamodelofsocialoppression.

MarxwouldbehorrifiedbyStalinismandLeninism.Myrole—andthatistooemphatica

word-istoshowpeoplethattheyaremuchfreerthantheyfeel,thatpeopleacceptas

truth,asevidence,somethemeswhichhavebeenbuiltupatacertainmomentduring

history,andthatthisso-calledevidencecanbecriticizedanddestroyed.Tochange

somethinginthemindsofpeople-that'stheroleofanintellectual.

Q:Inyourwritingyouseemfascinatedbyfigureswhoexistonthemarginsofsociety:

madmen,lepers,criminals,deviants,hermaphrodites,murderers,obscurethinkers.Why?

A:Iamsometimesreproachedforselectingmarginalthinkersinsteadoftakingexamples

fromthemainstreamofhistory.Myanswerwillbesnobbish:It'simpossibletosee

figureslikeBoppandRicardoasobscure.

A:Butwhataboutyourinterestinsocialoutcasts?

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Q:Idealwithobscurefiguresandprocessesfortworeasons:Thepoliticalandsocial

processesbywhichtheWesternEuropeansocietieswereputinorderarenotvery

apparent,havebeenforgotten,orhavebecomehabitual.Theyareapartofourmost

familiarlandscape,andwedon'tperceivethemanymore.Butmostofthemonce

scandalizedpeople.Itisoneofmytargetstoshowpeoplethatalotofthingsthatarea

partoftheirlandscape-thatpeoplethinkareuniversal-aretheresultofsomevery

precisehistoricalchanges.Allmyanalysesareagainsttheideaofuniversalnecessitiesin

humanexistence.Theyshowthearbitrarinessofinstitutionsandshowwhichspaceof

freedomwecanstillenjoyandhowmanychangescanstillbemade.

Q:Yourwritingscarryprofoundemotionalundercurrentsunusualinscholarlyanalyses:

anguishinDisciplineandPunish,scornandhopeinTheOrderofThings,outrageand

sadnessinMadnessandCivilization.

A:Eachofmyworksisapartofmyownbiography.ForoneoranotherreasonIhadthe

occasiontofeelandlivethosethings.Totakeasimpleexample,Iusedtoworkina

psychiatrichospitalinthe1950s.Afterhavingstudiedphilosophy,Iwantedtoseewhat

madnesswas:Ihadbeenmadenoughtostudyreason;Iwasreasonableenoughtostudy

madness.Iwasfreetomovefromthepatientstotheattendants,forIhadnopreciserole.

Itwasthetimeofthebloomingofneurosurgery,thebeginningofpsychopharmacology,

thereignofthetraditionalinstitution.AtfirstIacceptedthingsasnecessary,butthen

afterthreemonths(Iamslow-minded!),Iasked,HWhatisthenecessityofthesethings?"

AfterthreeyearsIleftthejobandwenttoSwedeningreatpersonaldiscomfortand

startedtowriteahistoryofthesepractices[MadnessandCivilization].

MadnessandCivilizationwasintendedtobeafirstvolume.Iliketowritefirstvolumes,

andIhatetowritesecondones.Itwasperceivedasapsychiatricide,butitwasa

descriptionfromhistory.Youknowthedifferencebetweenarealscienceanda

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pseudoscience?Arealsciencerecognizesandacceptsitsownhistorywithoutfeeling

attacked.Whenyoutellapsychiatristhismentalinstitutioncamefromthelazarhouse,he

becomesinfuriated.

Q:WhataboutthegenesisofDisciplineandPunish!

A:ImustconfessIhavehadnodirectlinkswithprisonsorprisoners,thoughIdidwork

asapsychologistinaFrenchprison.WhenIwasinTunisia,Isawpeoplejailedfor

politicalexpediency,andthatinfluencedme.

Q:Theclassicalageispivotalinallyourwritings.Doyoufeelnostalgiafortheclarityof

thatageorforthe"visibility"oftheRenaissancewheneverythingwasunifiedand

displayed?

A:Allofthisbeautyofoldtimesisaneffectofandnotareasonfornostalgia.Iknow

verywellthatitisourowninvention.Butit'squitegoodtohavethiskindofnostalgia,

justasit'sgoodtohaveagoodrelationshipwithyourownchildhoodifyouhavechildren.

It*sagoodthingtohavenostalgiatowardsomeperiodsontheconditionthatit*sawayto

haveathoughtfulandpositiverelationtoyourownpresent.Butifnostalgiaisareasonto

beaggressiveanduncomprehendingtowardthepresent,ithastobeexcluded.

Q:Whatdoyoureadforpleasure?

A:Thebookswhichproduceinmethemostemotion:Faulkner,ThomasMann,

MalcolmLowry'sUndertheVolcano.

Q:Whatweretheintellectualinfluencesuponyourthought?

A:IwassurprisedwhentwoofmyfriendsinBerkeleywrotesomethingaboutmeand

saidthatHeideggerwasinfluential[HubertL.DreyfusandPaulRabinow,Michel

Foucault:BeyondStructuralismandHermeneutics(Chicago;UniversityofChicago

press,1982)1.Ofcourseitwasquitetrue,butnooneinFrancehaseverperceivedit.

WhenIwasastudentinthe1950s,IreadHusserl,Sartre,Merleau-Ponty.Whenyoufeel

anoverwhelming

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influence,youtrytoopenawindow.Paradoxicallyenough,Heideggerisnotvery

difficultforaFrenchmantounderstand:Wheneverywordisanenigma,youareinanot-

too-badpositiontounderstandHeidegger.BeingandTimeisdifficult,butthemore

recentworksareclearer.

Nietzschewasarevelationtome.Ifeltthattherewassomeonequitedifferentfromwhat

Ihadbeentaught.Ireadhimwithagreatpassionandbrokewithmylife,leftmyjobin

theasylum,leftFrance:IhadthefeelingIhadbeentrapped.ThroughNietzsche,Ihad

becomeastrangertoallthat.FmstillnotquiteintegratedwithinFrenchsocialand

intellectuallife.AssoonasIcan,IleaveFrance.IfIwereyounger,Iwouldhave

immigratedtotheUnitedStates.

Q:Why?

A:Iseepossibilities.Youdon'thaveahomogenousintellectualandculturallife.Asa

foreigner,Idon*thavetobeintegrated.Thereisnopressureuponme.Therearealotof

greatuniversities,allwithverydifferentinterests.ButofcourseImighthavebeenfired

outoftheminthemostoutrageousway.

Q:Whydoyouthinkyoumighthavebeenfired?

A:I'mveryproudthatsomepeoplethinkthatFmadangerfortheintellectualhealthof

students.Whenpeoplestartthinkingofhealthinintellectualactivities,Ithinkthereis

somethingwrong.IntheiropinionIamadangerousman,sinceIamacryptoMarxist,an

irrationalist,anihilist.

Q:FromreadingTheOrderofThings,onemightconcludethatindividualeffortsto

reformareimpossiblebecausenewdiscoverieshaveallsortsofmeaningsand

implicationstheircreatorsnevercouldhaveunderstood.InDiscipline-andPunish,for

instance,youshowthattherewasasuddenchangefromthechaingangtotheclosed

policecarriage,fromthespectacleofpunishmenttodisciplinedinstitutionalpunishment.

Butyoualsopointoutthatthischange,whichseemedatthetimea"reform,n

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wasactuallyonlythenormalizingofsociety'sabilitytopunish.Sohowisconscious

changepossible?

A:HowcanyouimaginethatIthinkchangeisimpossiblesincewhatIhaveanalyzed

wasalwaysrelatedtopoliticalaction?AllofDisciplineandPunishisanattemptto

answerthisquestionandtoshowhowanewwayofthinkingtookplace.

Allofusarelivingandthinkingsubjects.WhatIreactagainstisthefactthatthereisa

breachbetweensocialhistoryandthehistoryofideas.Socialhistoriansaresupposedto

describehowpeopleactwithoutthinking,andhistoriansofideasaresupposedto

describehowpeoplethinkwithoutacting.Everybodybothactsandthinks.Theway

peopleactorreactislinkedtoawayofthinking,andofcoursethinkingisrelatedto

tradition.WhatIhavetriedtoanalyzeisthisverycomplexphenomenonthatmade

peoplereactinanotherwaytocrimesandcriminalsinarathershortperiodoftime.

Ihavewrittentwokindsofbooks.One,TheOrderofThings,isconcernedonlywith

scientificthought;theother,DisciplineandPunish,isconcernedwithsocialprinciples

andinstitutions.Historyofsciencedoesn'tdevelopinthesamewayassocialsensibility.

Inordertoberecognizedasscientificdiscourse,thoughtmustobeycertaincriteria.In

DisciplineandPunishtexts,practices,andpeoplestruggleagainsteachother.

InmybooksIhavereallytriedtoanalyzechanges,notinordertofindthematerial

causesbuttoshowallthefactorsthatinteractedandthereactionsofpeople.Ibelievein

thefreedomofpeople.Tothesamesituation,peoplereactinverydifferentways.

Q:YouconcludeDisciplineandPunishbysayingthatitwillnserveasabackgroundfor

variousstudiesofnormalizationandthepowerofknowledgeinmodernsociety."Whatis

therelationshipofnormalizationandtheconceptofmanasthecenterofknowledge?

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ArThroughthesedifferentpractices-psychological,medical,penitential,educational一a

certainideaormodelofhumanitywasdeveloped,andnowthisideaofmanhasbecome

normative,selfevident,andissupposedtobeuniversal.Humanismmaynotbeuniversal

butmaybequiterelativetoacertainsituation.Whatwecallhumanismhasbeenusedby

Marxists,liberals,Nazis,Catholics.Thisdoesnotmeanthatwehavetogetridofwhat

wecallhumanrightsorfreedom,butthatwecan*tsaythatfreedomorhumanrightshas

tobelimitedatcertainfrontiers.Forinstance,ifyouaskedeightyyearsagoiffeminine

virtuewaspartofuniversalhumanism,everyonewouldhaveansweredyes.

WhatIamafraidofabouthumanismisthatitpresentsacertainformofourethicsasa

universalmodelforanykindoffreedom.Ithinkthattherearemoresecrets,more

possiblefreedoms,andmoreinventionsinourfuturethanwecanimagineinhumanism

asitisdogmaticallyrepresentedoneverysideofthepoliticalrainbow:theLeft,the

Center,theRight.

Q:Andthisiswhatissuggestedby"TechnologiesoftheSelf?

A:Yes.YousaidbeforethatyouhavethefeelingthatIamunpredictable.That'strue.But

Isometimesappeartomyselfmuchtoosystematicandrigid.

WhatIhavestudiedarethethreetraditionalproblems:(1)Whataretherelationswehave

totruththroughscientificknowledge,tothose"truthgames"whicharesoimportantin

civilizationandinwhichwearebothsubjectandobject?(2)Whataretherelationships

wehavetoothersthroughthosestrangestrategiesandpowerrelationships?And(3)what

aretherelationshipsbetweentruth,power,andself?

Iwouldliketofinishallthiswithaquestion:Whatcouldbemoreclassicthanthese

questionsandmoresystematicthantheevolutionthroughquestionsone,two,andthree

andbacktothefirst?Iamjustatthispoint.